S1: Welcome in San Diego. I'm Andrew Bracken in for Jade Hyneman. This Veteran's Day , though , the military's don't ask , don't tell policy ended years ago , its impacts are still felt today. Plus , a look into some of the common financial challenges facing military families and veterans. This is KPBS Midday Edition. Connecting our communities through conversation. Last month , the Pentagon moved to update discharge codes for hundreds of LGBTQ plus veterans forced out under the Don't Ask , Don't Tell policy. The 1993 policy determined that LGBTQ plus service members could serve so long as they stayed in the closet. Don't ask , Don't Tell was lifted in 2011 , but its legacy has deep implications for the lives of LGBTQ plus veterans. The San Diego LGBT Community Center honors those veterans through its Veterans Wall of Honor. Seven inductees are being honored this year. Paul Crone says inclusion in the Wall of Honor is vindication after what she endured in uniform , battling discrimination and sexual harassment.

S2: A lot of people tried to shame me and have tried to shame me throughout by telling me to shut my mouth , you know , causing trouble , you know , just let it be. Just ignore it. So that's what the acknowledgment for me is about is like , wow , I finally get recognized instead of being shamed.

S1: Joining me now to talk about the Veterans Wall of Honor is Veronica Sayre. She is a retired major in the US Army and a co-chair for the Wall of Honors Advisory Council. Veronica , welcome to Midday Edition.

S3: And I think every single story , uh , just really touches you. Uh , some of them rip your heart out. Uh , one last year , I believe his name was Tom Carpenter. Um , he was a fighter pilot during the Vietnam War , and he had flown combat missions. And once the military found out that he was gay and had a partner , they asked him to leave the service. Do you know how long it takes to train a fighter pilot ? Uh , there's other stories where one woman was discharged from the US Air Force. She loved her job. She was a security policeman and she was discharged because she was lesbian. However , she turned that into a career being an being an employment law attorney. And she's a very successful employment law attorney here in San Diego.

S1: So as you mentioned , there are hundreds of such stories.

S1: So for those who don't understand the gravity of don't ask , don't tell.

S3: You were getting rid of commanders of submarines. You were getting rid of people that were keeping our soldiers and sailors supplied. You were getting rid of fighter pilots , bomber pilots. You were getting rid of infantrymen. You were getting rid of tankers. You were getting rid of. There is no superfluous job in the military. Um , the , um , the analogy I always like to make is , is that a parts load list specialist is the pool clerk in the army , and sometimes a combat vehicle , such as a tank being ready for combat and not ready for combat hinges on the appropriate resupply of a single bolt. And it's that PLL clerk that makes sure that that bolt is there for that tank. What it's done to the LGBT community is that it basically others , the LGBT people that have been discharged from the military and what it did was it it set them up for a lifetime of number one. They couldn't access some VA benefits. But number two , that's a heck of a blow to someone's self-esteem.

S1: So kind of the interesting point that you made there is I mean , of course it impacted the LGBTQ military members themselves. But it also sounds like , in your view , it had an impact on the military itself and its effectiveness to to do its job.

S3: Listened to the military exists to fight our nation's wars , okay ? And anything that detracts from our ability to fight those wars is a detriment to our national security. So if you're going to kick people out , competent people out just because of their gender identity or sexuality , then that is a reduction in the overall combat readiness of the force.

S1: So , Veronica , I'd love to hear more about your own story. You're retired member of the US Army.

S3: Um , when I started out on a farm in Kansas , I was raised on a small farm , and it was , um , I always knew that I would go into the military. In fact , I always tell people that had I had a even , uh , even if I had been born a girl. I was born a boy. But even if I had been born a girl , I still would have gone into the military , because that's something that our family did. Our family did not shrink from being drafted. Our family joined when they needed , um , my great great grandfather fought in the 30th Ohio Infantry Regiment during the Civil War. He went through Vicksburg. He went through Antietam. He went through Kennesaw Mountain. And if you want to connect with your ancestors , find a battlefield that they walked across and then walk across that same battlefield. I walked across the battlefield that he that his regiment charged across at Kennesaw Mountain. And I was in tears by the time it was all over , my military journey started out. I joined the military simply to get the GI Bill so I could so I could afford college. I ended up enjoying it so much. I went back into ROTC and became a Cavalry. Um , platoon leader. I was a I was I served as a scout cavalry scout first , then a cavalry platoon leader. And after that I served on staffs at the first , uh , first Infantry Division and the 35th Infantry Division.

S1: So what kind of support do you wish you had back then when you first entered the military.

S3: In in looking back on my career , I wish I would have had my gender that I am in now to be able to serve in because I'm so much more effective. Mhm. Um , I would , I'm so much more proactive instead of reactive. Uh , I when you're transgender and when you're trying to keep a lid on it so you don't exhibit too much to your coworkers and to your comrades and your unit. What you need to do is you you adopt a falseness about yourself and that takes work. Whereas if you're if you're gender congruent , you don't have to think about that work. And what you can do is you can focus on your job. I would have been so much more effective had I been able to express my true gender in the military.

S1: About 6% of military personnel in the US identify as LGBTQ+. What unique challenges do LGBTQ plus veterans face that other veterans may not think about.

S3: Primarily right now , what we're getting from the anecdotal evidence that we're getting from people that I work with that are in the in the fleet here in San Diego , is harassment and discrimination still exists ? Um , unfortunately , the , um , and I want to be careful when they say this. The , the official word is that discrimination will not be tolerated and that helps quite a bit , but there's still those individuals in the military that will do it , that will take it upon themselves to harass somebody out of the military. There was a incident , I don't want to say incident , but there was a , um , a case on board a , uh , one of our submarines , the USS Scranton , and an individual came out as transgender , and all of a sudden their work started sliding. So if the military wants to get you , if somebody in the military wants to get you out of the military , they will find a way to get you out of the military. So the number one issue that we still have to face is the discrimination issue.

S1: And now moving on to , you know , to more current events last week , as we all know , Donald Trump was elected the 47th president of the United States.

S3: Quite frankly , they're they're apprehensive. They don't know. The first group is the trans are are trans troops. They don't know whether or not they're going to be told to leave the military or not. As as you well know , he is very fond of looking someone in the eye and saying , you're fired. And he he owes his base something in regards to that which is going to once again be highly detrimental to the force. The other thing that it's going to do is it's going to empower more of that discrimination I was talking about earlier. I fully expect that there's probably going to be an increase in harassment. There's going to be an increase in , um , overregulation of an LGBTQ , um , military person.

S1: And during Trump's first term in 2017 , he did announce a ban on transgender people serving in the US military , one which President Biden later reversed.

S3: Once again , there were pilots that were thrown out that were that there were people that were told , well , I'm sorry , you can't join because you're transgender. The individuals that were already there , that had already transitioned. As far as I know , most of them still stayed and all of that. But what you've got is , is you also have an end of recruitment of people , of qualified individuals into the military. So it doesn't make any sense. I mean , if you need ten people and you've automatically told one of those ten people they can't join because of who they are , then you've limited your pool to nine people. And if and if Apple and some of these other companies are hiring people at a much better pay grade than the military , you're going to be left within a decreasing pool of recruits.

S3: I mean , there you don't have to be a toxic person in order to be a lethal soldier. You really don't. When it comes to being in the military , you have three primary jobs. You have to shoot , move , and communicate. And it's the LGBTQ people that I know in the military. They just want to do their jobs as best they can do them.

S3: And I think what everybody wants is , number one , they want to be able to work so they can provide for their families. Number two , they want to be valued coworkers. And number three , what they really want is they just want to be respected members of the overall San Diego community.

S3: But my great great grandfather did not storm across Antietam Creek in order to see the country turn into an authoritarian regime. Uh , my friends Dan Hartke and Joe Johnston , they did not die in a plane crash simply for a authoritarian type of government. What I want people to understand about LGBTQ veterans is that we want to support our Constitution. That's the primary thing.

S3: The Constitution does , um. We swear an oath of loyalty. Not to a man , not to a woman , not to a king. It says , General Milley said , we swear an oath of loyalty to the Constitution. My , I have an uncle and I have an aunt who are both attorneys , and they always like to send me little notes on Constitution Day. And the Constitution Day is is kind of their idea of July 4th. But Constitution Day is something that we celebrate , that we all celebrate because , um , I decided once that if I'm prepared to have my life taken for my country , I need to find out what my country is all about. And my country is articulated in the Constitution and all of the amendments.

S1: I've been speaking with Veronica Zaher. She's a retired major in the US Army and a co-chair for the San Diego LGBT Center's Veterans Wall of Honor Advisory Council. Veronica , thanks so much for being here.

S1: Coming up , we hear about some of the financial struggles military families and veterans commonly face and how one local nonprofits trying to help.

S4: We wanted to help these families that get into a financial crisis , these transitioning veterans that get into financial crisis. And we want to do it in a way that makes this their last crisis.

S1: That's ahead on Midday Edition. You're listening to KPBS Midday Edition. I'm Andrew Bracken in for Jade Hindman. Times are tough for many veterans and military families are also feeling the impact and navigating difficult financial situations of their own. In fact , a 2023 report from the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau found that the military community is dealing with more financial stress , including student debt and fraud. Here to discuss the financial realities that many veterans face today is Tony Teravainen. He's the CEO and co-founder of Support the Enlisted Project , or Step. It's a nonprofit dedicated to helping military families and veterans improve their financial well-being. Tony , welcome to Midday Edition. Yeah.

S4: And I think we need to kind of start before they join the military. And what we see really in America , the culture is , you know , most of America has poor financial habits , right ? So three out of five Americans spend their entire paycheck or more each month. Half of all Americans have less than $400 for unplanned emergency. And these are the financial habits that America's children gain , you know , from their parents or whoever's raising them. And those those behaviors are institutionalized inside them before they even turn ten years old. And really from 10 to 14 , they learn how to operationalize that. And that's what America is. And what happens is , you know , every year , 150 to 200,000 of those people join the military. And then what do we do to them ? Right. The first thing we do is rip them out of their home environment. That would have kept them solvent and , you know , away from their aunts , uncles and friends. Um , we're going to move them around the country every 2 or 3 years. That's going to put the spouse in a 50% unemployment or underemployment rate. So that'll lock them into that low income wage that most all our young service members earn. And then we're going to deploy one deploy that service member a third of the time. So you're going to be going back between 1 and 2 parent households. If you started with two parents every day , that service members go into work in the nation's third most deadly occupation. So for the last 40 years , more service members have died from work related accidents than any other cause. And then really , if that's not enough , they're going to tie their performance evaluation and their security clearance to their ability to manage money. So you're taking somebody with average financial habits , which are kind of poor , and you're putting them in a situation with higher family stress , higher financial stress and higher work stress , and then holding them to really a higher bar.

S1: And even in the kind of military recruitment process that can kind of exploit some of those financial difficulties. Right ? I mean , I think our colleague KPBS , Scott Rod featured some reporting on some predatory sort of credit , uh , aggressive credit tactics for military members.

S4: Yeah. And they don't have they don't have the years of history and experience that they have. There's a lot of folks out there that know that the military people get paychecks every two weeks. And it it comes , you know , rain or shine. And so , yeah , the old signs , uh , financing E-1 and up for the truck sales or whatever. I think California and San Diego specifically have done a pretty good job at really curbing that. There's been a little bit of that coming back , and a lot of times what you see too is , you know , that military population , they have their own wants and desires , you know , even even our single service members that live on base , you know , they're they're giving up this part of their life and they're they're living at work. They're being consumed by their jobs , they're deploying overseas. They're doing just a lot of hard work. And , you know , it's easy to judge why why they're going to spend their money and buy a a Dodge Charger , it says , is often the thing. And it's like , well , you know , it's like he just he's doing all this because he wants to have a nice car. He wants to have something nice that he can go enjoy other than sitting and staring in his barracks room's walls. And , you know , maybe it's not the smartest decision. So this comes back to the behavior piece. And this is really what we created step for. We wanted to help these families that get into a financial crisis , these transitioning veterans to get into financial crisis. And we want to do it in a way that makes this their last crisis. And it took it really that was the starting idea of it. And from that , I had to go back and build a program to be able to do that. And it came back to behaviors. People act on these behaviors that are , you know , embedded and hardwired into them , and they're hard to change. Right ? If it wasn't , you could just tell everybody to quit smoking and they would all just quit smoking just the same as you could give everybody an Excel spreadsheet and say , spend your money this way and it'll be fine , right ? These are both behaviors that we're dealing with. So this is really how we how we work on it from the step perspective. The financial counselors that these families work with are actually social workers. So they're skilled and trained in behavior modification skills. We've created a short term intervention Prevention brief , solution focused therapy that we're using to help these families change their behaviors around money , helping them , you know , empowering them to help them understand they can do it , make them believe that they don't have to forever be , you know , the dog that's wagged by the financial tail. Help them learn the tools to be able to build a plan and then help them execute that plan and continue to educate , empower and support them along the way. I mean , obviously we provide cash to their , um , to their creditors if it's needed to restore , retain a basic necessity during the day. But focusing on those behaviors , why they make the decisions they make.

S1: You're also helping families meet their basic needs , right ? Can you talk a little bit about that ? Yeah.

S4: So our core program is this emergency financial assistance program , a family facing repossession , disconnection , eviction. You know , let's get them let's help them through this crisis in a way that makes this their last crisis. But to begin that conversation , they have to know about us , and they have to come to us and ask for help because they're really going to be driving the bus during that process. We're not going to push him. We're not going to pull him. They don't sign a contract. They don't have to keep coming back to us. This is all their desire. They have to say , I want to change. I want your help. Um , in order to do that , they need to not only know about us , but they need to trust us. And when you start talking about money , you know , as humans , it becomes very personal , very quickly. And these are conversations they're scared to have with their spouses. They're scared to have with themselves , they're scared to have with their military supervisors. So they have to really trust that we can help them. So in order for us to build that reputation , we have to kind of get our name out there and plug in , and we do it through other support programs. And that's really the focus of all of our secondary programs. So we're giving out several hundred thousand pounds of food a year , several hundred thousand diapers a year at various distributions , over half of which are actually physically on the bases. Now , we're doing that in partnership with the military and other service providers. What we have coming up for Thanksgiving is we'll have about 300 families come get a complete meal. And I , I had my team do a survey one night. I said , all right , all the families that drive through and pick up these meal kits , ask them how valuable this is to them , because that's essentially the voice of my customer. 25% of those families said they would not have had a Christmas or Thanksgiving dinner if they hadn't picked it up from us. Not like somewhere randomly , but just from us. And I was shocked at that number. And around another 15% said we could scrape enough up on our own. But now we can invite 2 or 3 people , you know , from the barracks or from the shop or friends over , and we can have , like , this bigger community dinner. I'm like , if that's what you know , if that's the community this is creating , and it's offsetting that type of hardship so that they can have this moment amongst themselves to kind of celebrate life and be thankful. Then then we should keep doing that. So we've done Thanksgiving ever since the Christmas program. We have two Christmas programs where we , um , we engage with the community to collect toys , and we collect tons of toys from , I think , 50 or 60 different , um , agencies have a little barrel in their lobby , like , you see. And what we were able to do with them is we bring it back and our volunteers will sort them out by age group and mid-December or something like that. Uh , the , the families , the parents usually can come through and they can get 2 or 3 toys for each of their kids that are new , unwrapped , and they can just take them back and just help out what's under the tree , massive amounts of economic relief , but just kind of bringing joy in that holiday spirit and and creating that positive brand out there where people know and trust us and when they're ready to take the conversation to the next level , we're here for them.

S1: Well , I think you also alluded to this. It's it's also an emotional issue. I think you mentioned like having social workers there.

S4: So our social workers , most of them have a master's degree in social work. They got ten years in the field or so. They all have a shared experience. So their military spouse , their military veteran , their military kid , they get it. Because what can happen often is the environment shouldn't adjust how you feel about your behaviors or your your behaviors associated with your finances. But it's easy to say , you know , the military did this to me , so I'm a victim of that. The other thing I do with them so I get my social workers will hire them. I'll send them off to get to become certified financial counselors. So we get a KPFK certified personal financial counselor. Then they've got another six weeks to become a certified Certified financial social worker , which is kind of a deeper dive into these behaviors that you're talking about with finances. So they're they're comfortable on the military side. They're comfortable in the financial side. And now they can maintain that conversation about the behaviors. It's really it's really there's so little about it that's actually about the money. The money is the easy part. It's getting them to think they can do it. And um , you know , if you if you really look at our program , it's based on this solution focused approach. But we bring in these other modalities crisis , crisis theory. Right. How do you help people manage their crisis ? And sometimes those crises are different. If you and your spouse come in , you're going to have two separate crises about the same issue. We've had military supervisors bring a spouse and a marine in and all three of them , uh , I remember that episode. I mean , this young marine was almost like , carried by the scruff of his neck into our office , and they sat down with the social worker for two hours , and then they left. And , you know , it's like they the door opened. You could see kind of the steam coming out. And everybody was like , what happened ? Did you fix it ? You know , it was like what you want to ask ? And the social worker is like , no , now , now we're on the same page because the woman was in hysterics , right ? She was crying. She's the one who has to pay the bills. He's the marine kind of in denial. I don't have a problem. I can take this bridge , you know. I can fix this. And his first sergeant was there , and he had his notebook out , and he's he's taking notes to try to figure out what he needs to do to be able to help his marine. And so the social worker had the same conversation with three people , but three different conversations right with each person. The marine got the finger , mom got some support. And then the educational side to to the first sergeant. So it's really all about addressing where they're at. And you have to figure it out. People come I mean people come from all over the country. They're going to marry somebody with completely different financial behaviors and a completely different financial background. They're going to come together. They're going to come together in a very challenging time and just try to get by. And when that doesn't work , it becomes very conflicted. So a lot of other conversations will happen along the way. You know , you call me for an eviction. Social worker is going to say , did you talk to your you talk to your landlord yet ? It's like , no , he's a jerk. He may be a jerk , but he's the most important jerk in this conversation. Right. It's like you have to be able to talk to somebody about the debt you owe. This is your problem to fix it. So there'll be a discussion about how to have conversations like that. They might go into some role playing. Inevitably , the social worker is probably going to be on the phone when they talk to the landlord anyway. And in that situation , all we need is like five days , just like , don't file any more paperwork for five days , please. We can fix this. We got , you know , 100% success rate. We've stopped almost 700 evictions here in San Diego over the last 12 years. And we can make this work. Just work with us. Um , another instance might be we're working with one of the spouses , and she's. What ? She say ? Um , she said this. This sounds all well and good , but I've never had a conversation with my husband where we didn't get in a fight. When we're talking about money and it's like , so what do you do ? Well , what's the banker going to do ? You know , he's going to stare at you or somebody like a financial person has a different aspect. The social worker , you know , they're wheeling back in their head and they're like , well , you know , when I talk to people through conflicted situations , there are some some things I can say and some things I can do. Would you like to hear some some ideas that might be able to help you get through that situation ? Yeah , I'd love it. So they do a little discussion on the side and then you get that call back on Monday. It says like we did it. We had that 30 minute conversation like you said , and I did it how you said. And we didn't fight as the first time we ever talked about money. She said , what did your husband say about the program ? Well , what did she say ? She's like , well , he's not completely sold , but he's not against it either , which is a start. Progress , right ? Yeah , exactly. And they're and they're creating the progress because they all create their own plan. And it's and you got to say it right. You got to say it. You have to start opening those doors. All the stuff that you've been cramming in the back of your head , hiding it so you can sleep so you can manage your job so you can take care of your kids and just and not go crazy. You've got to pour that stuff out and get your whole mess on the table and fix it at once. And I think that's really the beauty of our program.

S4: And in the top right corner it says apply for services. Volunteer your time or donate. And really you know I said earlier we're kind of a conduit between the community. We're completely community funded. If the government could fix this problem , they would have um , and by by us becoming a government funded entity , they want to tell us how to fix the problem. And we know that's not going to work. So in order to be , you know , 90% effective with a 3% return rate , we need to be able to manage Each , each one the way we have been managing each case. And if it takes 25 hours , if it takes 15 hours of counseling , right. If we have to pay $200 , you have to pay $3,000. You know , whatever it takes for each of these situations , we have to be able to live by that number one core value , which is just to do the right thing in every situation. Right. Don't let bureaucracy get in the way of doing what's right. So the community has been funding us for the past 12 years , and we're very thankful for that. And they're the ones that have been able to help us do it. And so , yes , it comes back to funding. But , you know , for us , we're kind of in it for the long haul. So it's about building the relationships that will create this funding. So it's the advocacy. It's the volunteering. It's the leadership. It's the people want to help us connect. A lot of people say , you know , I know somebody that would like to learn about you , and that's great. And we appreciate folks like that. So we are just the conduit between a community that wants to support these military families in a way that can provide lasting , permanent changes and get them out of this , you know , bad financial behavior rut up on a plateau where they can go out and meet and reach and achieve their fullest potential for themselves and their family.

S1: I've been speaking with Tony Teravainen , CEO and co-founder of the nonprofit Support the Enlisted Project. Tony , thanks so much for being here.

S1: That's our show for today. I'm Andrew Bracken. KPBS Midday Edition airs on KPBS FM weekdays at noon , again at 8 p.m.. You can find past episodes at KPBS. Org or wherever you listen. Thanks again for listening. Have a great day.